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The issue of abortion is something that has caused a great deal of controversy and debate over the past few decades.
Both sides of the argument are passionate in what they believe in and at times, the debate can become violent.
Our Connector of the Day is controversial anti-abortion activist, Michael Bray.
He's been convicted in relation to the bombing of 10 different women's health clinics in the United States and served nearly four years in prison for his crimes.
Bray, who is a minister, believes that he is in the middle of a holy war against abortion and its supporters.
"If we are to affirm, as I do, that the children in the womb who are killed at abortion facilities are, in fact, children - if these are children, then action taken to defend them is justifiable - it cannot be condemned," Bray said during a 1999 "60 Minutes" interview.
"I consider blowing up a place where babies are killed a justifiable act."
For the last few years, Bray has been writing a biography of Shelley Shannon, the first person to attempt to kill prominent abortion doctor George Tiller. Tiller was killed last May by another anti-abortionist alleged to be Scott Roeder, to whom Bray wrote an open letter praising his "righteousness."
We know this is an emotional issue, but we'd like to know what you think.
Are you for or against what Bray believes in? Is it justifiable to attack abortion clinics under any circumstance? What are your thoughts on the issue?
Please leave your comment below
I am against Abortion in any circunstance but I cannot acept That using violent methods can lift up our cause.
Abortion is murder but you cannot justified the use of violence, such as bombing abortion clinics under any circumstance.
I love that the questions pretty much say this: "let's start a comment riot, hopefully someone will be 'for' Bray and thus will start a drama war on this thread". Filed under "connetor of the day", how would this connect people? Or does it mean finding people to hate, i guess that is a connection...
I have nothing but disgust and contempt for the anti-abortion fanatics.America is supposed to be about freedom and these fanatics want to kill women's freedom
I would have more respect for all of the issues around this topic, IF the same concern were extended to invitro and fertility clinics. They [clinics] play God everyday and discard more embryos too. All in the name of monetary gain and the narcissist desires of some to have children. It might even be possible to extend the debate to "if God wanted them to have children, then they would ...". Isn't that how it is supposed to work? God's will?
As a Christian, I know that one day we will all meet our maker and have to account for what we have done. Michael Bray included.
This abortion argument is almost always portrayed in black and white terms (either all choice or no choice), and we will never come to a consensus until our arguments are better defined.
I believe that a woman's choice is paramount in the first trimester, and societies interest paramount in the third. The middle trimester is where intelligent debate should be centered, with science guiding that debate, not religious dogma. The above assumes a normal pregnancy.
Alex, although I do believe healthy debates are how the country is run, I definitely agree with you on this one. It seems this type of forum is only a catalyst for drama and the arguments of the narrow-minded from both sides.
It seems that the whole issue should be based around "when does sentient human life begin". If there is a point when we know the collection of cells is really sentient, then killing it is murder. If we can not say with certainty when this is, the decision should be the woman's carrying the baby. We can not really determine if there is really something separate (a soul) from our physical bodies. We can not measure when it leaves upon death. We can not measure when it comes into being either.
Personally, I do not want others religions beliefs as a basis for our laws, so quoting one of the books of the bible or koran is pointless.
Ahhhhh fight murder with murder rather than using education and compassion to eliminate need for abortion. Always attack the end result. Don't try to understand the unlying problems and solve them.
It is a woman's right to determine whether or not to have a medical procedure to resolve a medical issue with a woman's body. It is not the right of a society or individual to try to impress their views upon another person. We are all created equal. A fetus is not alive until birth. This cannot be argued from a religous point of view as that view is not valid except within the confines of the religion. This man was practicing the same sort of evil the Nazi's practiced when he set explosives to kill people. You do not resolve an issue through force. You resolve an issue by bringing people to a consensous.
An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind. – gandhi
Anyone using violent means to stop abortion, which inherently suggests the intent to harm or kill those involved in this practice, makes the person commiting that act of violence just as guilty as those involved in the practice of abortion. Therefore, whether you are "pro-life" or "pro-choice", these acts of violence are undeniably immoral and absolutely forbidden by the basic religious tenet 'pro-life" advocates so vehemently espouse: "Thou shalt not kill"
I do not condone Mr. Bray's actions in the least. But I regard this "Connector of the Day" as simply another childish attempt to discredit people with legitimate political views. What possibly did you think you could accomplish by this kind of loaded discussion? It's shameful that a highly regarded news organization would stoop to this. It is a little too transparent. Alex, above, is absolutely correct.
Too transparent? Isn't the problem that things are usually never transparent in an arguent over an issue like this?
Okay, so here goes: Since god isn't real, but is rather an elaborate concept evolved in the human mind over many millennia as a means to internally justify and thereby deal with inexplicable tragedies and phenomena, and has become now a tool of oppressors fed to the public when they are young by people who are paid to lie to children (ministers, priests, rabbis, imams, what have you), can we not just discount belief as a mental illness and legally remove it from the debate? Then people will have to start coming up with a real reason why abortion is wrong and the debate can start in earnest. You know, use science in the argument instead of magic and mysticism. I.E. pin down when consciousness develops in a fetus to determine when they could be considered a person. Stuff like that.
Extremists really scare me, in every form. Trying to violently force people to follow your religious based beliefs is wrong, period. I can't imagine a world where a 10 year old child was raped by her father and then abortions were unavailable, even if both the daughter and the fetus were going to die. Or is my wife or 10 year old was raped and was forced to continue with the pregnancy even if she was going to die. Well thats what banning abortion in all forms means. I think there is a balance between preventing it as a form of birth control and providing reasonable access to those who need it.
Lets set he record straight. First, there is no god, so arguing about what he would want is pointless. Second, why are good god fearing christians alright with war, but killing an unborn fetus is unthinkable? More people have been killed in the name of god than fetuses have been aborted, but that doesn't seem to be a problem. I have also never understood "gods will". If god had the will to do something wouldn't he just do it himself instead of picking out some lunatic to do his dirty work. This is in fact a all powerful being we are talking about here right? Abortion has to be the right for every woman, and don't get me wrong, I would never want any woman to get an abortion. But it has to be their choice, it is their body, it does not belong to bray or any other insane brainwashed fanatic who thinks he or she is doing gods work. god doesn't have any work, there is no invisible man in the sky. People really need to figure this out before the "thou shall not kill" followers kill us all simply because they were doing "gods work".
What ever happened to educating people about birth control and making it freely available !!!
I fully don't believe in abortion, but there are certain circumstances in which it is okay. Some teens are too young to be having babies and may not have a good opportunity to get a good education or are unfinancially stable, which is unfair to the child.
Abortion is not for me but I am pro-choice
I recently have a family member who's options were have the baby and die or have the baby and the baby die or get an abortion with the though of leaving leaving her two small childern without a mother she chose to get an abortion after much thought and guilt over the matter.
Now you tell me would god look down upon her for doing what she did? she could have had it anyway and the baby would still die or she would leaving three small childern to be wards of the state and face a worse fate. Is that much different?
I see it as if it's not your body it's none of your buisness!
As for killing people at clinics you killing people who are not involved in the abortion in any way. So believe you will go to hell and burn or doing something so stupid with no regard for the innnocent plus you killed the babies you wanted to live. nice job dumb*ss
Its time to take the right to life issue to its correct level. Ending abortion is only a starting point. All intercourse should have the goal of child bearing. Use of any contraceptive method is a violation of the right to life principle. All contraceptive methods should be banned and the companies that make, sell, provide or encourage their use boycotted. This is our end goal, so why pussyfoot around with these incomplete steps?
If you believe that abortion is killing babies (which I do) than justifying it on the basis of "women's right to choose" sounds no different than "women should have the right to kill babies" to me. I will never support that.
Anti-abortion people are not interested in protecting fetuses. Making abortion illegal doesn't reduce the number of abortions. It just guarantees that abortions will be dangerous. Indeed, the absolute number of abortions is more likely to decline in places where abortion is legal and birth control widely and cheaply available.
It isn't really very ethical to value private pleasure over the well being of actual human beings, but that's what the anti-abortionist hysteria amounts to: a sort of moral masturbation. Unfortunately while sexual self-abuse doesn't hurt anybody, the religious kind often does.
If you don't like abortion, don't have one. Its as simple as that. Its not up to religious fanatics to decide what murder is, and then go murder someone because they decide its right. And then, then we're supposed to listen to their point of view, because they have the right to express it.
But let me counter "Shane" and those parochial views of his or hers or whatever Shane is. Love thy neighbor. Do it. Do it as much as you can, wherever you can and as often as you can. Do it until you wear it out. Just don't go dropping unwanted babies allover the atmosphere.
All these folks that are so agitated about abortion - it is a legal procedure. This center they are opening in Houston services a tri-county area for guess what - sex education and birth control options. I know these bible bangers think their lovelies are just holding hands, but STDs are soaring among the lovelies, fastest growing group, so does anyone think "just say no" or the "abstinence pact" is working?
I am ready to start rioting over the fact that the moral "POLICE" are interfering with my basic freedoms. Leave me alone with your puritanical beliefs.
I am against abortion. But believing it is wrong does not justify using violence, violence that can kill people.
If I bomb a building with people inside and kill them that doesn't make me any better than people that have abortions!
This individual is a terrorist. We have been locking people up in Guantanamo for years with a lot less justification or evidence, and without trial. Clearly, he needs to be arrested immediately and spend the rest of his natural life ruminating upon his sins in a cell somewhere. Haiti would be a good choice, and incarceration there could provide a small income for the people as a humanitarian benefit.
For those of you who condone abortion and preach about freedom, consider the fact that you have the freedom to choose whether you would practise safe sex or not. Shouldn't the children in the womb have the freedom to have a chance at life? Their lives lay in the hands of the irresponsible and someone has to stand up for their freedom. In some circumstances I think abortion is something that needs to be done, but when it comes to aborting a pregnancy because one was irresponsible I just find it appauling. Everyone is capable of making the responsible decision; if they are given the easy way out when they make a mistake they'll never learn or care to try to avoid making the same mistake twice.
This is the first I've heard about the bombings of abortion clinics so I'm not entirely sure whether people have been injured or killed. If this minister is hurting people or killing them, his actions really defeat his purpose. Regardless of his cause, two wrongs do not make it right. However, I feel that if no one has been injured or killed and his intent is not to hurt people, I find his actions justifiable.
We are a twisted society, this is for sure...
We'll be arguing about this until the cows come home, but abortions will still go on whether anyone likes it or not.
Opinions on this issue should not be allowed unless you have had one, are thinking of having one, or know someone who has had one. This topic should have no place for anyone otherwise
To those that hope to make abortion illegal– When does life begin??? If you "believe" it begins at conception, a) why are you not considering all the discarded embryos in exactly the same manner.....and b) What makes you believe that life begins at conception??? If you believe it based upon your religion, don't you agree that religion should be kept separate from our government???
I believe that human rights vest at conception. Hence, although abortion is an enormously simple way to deal with an unwanted life, it nonetheless constitutes the taking of one's life and should be made illegal. But this has to be adjudicated and resolved peacefully through the courts and our judicial system, and by cultural recognition that abortion is, in fact, murder. It should not be through violence.
As an active duty military member and a non-religious Christian (i.e. "religion" is about regulations, Christianity is about relationship: I love Jesus, end of story), I personally disagree with abortion. But I disagree stronger with violence being used to push religious extremism...isnt that exactly what we say we're trying to stop in Afghanistan?
Violence breeds violence. Judge not..lest you be judged. Tolerance seems to be the keyword these days but I think tolerance breeds tolerance.
If I say to you... "you will be judged harshly by God if you take your own life", then do nothing as I watch you take your life...how will I be judged? For I know your mother will say..."if only"...your brother will say ... "I wish I'd have".... your grandson will say "Mommy why did grandpa WANT to die? Did he not like us?".
It is in our moments of weakness that we are vulnerable to the evils of the world. This is why we need to surround ourselves with strong people.
If however, I have a gun myself, and am thinking... "if only I could shoot the gun out of his hand before he shoots" then aim and shoot and accomplish my goal but the bullet glances off the pistol and lands in the temple of another whos life is taken. What good have I accomplished?
Actions speak louder than words... but let our actions be of a reasonable nature... Let us find strength in numbers of people who agree with us. Help us God to find and push those strong people to action if they have been weakened by CTWIE.
Despite what might often seem contrary, America is a nation of laws–that is our "approved" method of dispute settlement and any and all disputes should be submitted to that venue for settlement of issues. To not have the courts suppoirt your individual and personal viewpoint may be disappointing, bust only in chaos are you guaranteed the chance to force everybody else to agree with you.
I agree with Alex. This type of forum will not bring anyting healthy. Abortion is perhaps the single-most personal, controversial, emotional and divisive topics in the US. My question to CNN: do you honestly contend that you have any reason aside from ratings to open pandora's box?
Freedom of the press is essencial in America. I agree. With freedom comes responsibility. What responsibility are you fulfilling here, CNN?
No 'pro-life' person will broaden his/her mind, nor will any 'pro-choice' person because of the comments listed here.
And so, what's the point then, CNN?????????????????
CNN should be ashamed of trying to drag out pointless arguments in an attempt to gain readers. Obviously Bray is a lunatic, but giving him a forum like this is only dividing us as a country. It would be nice of this organization if they put their country before their profits. I expect this from Fox News, but CNN? Let's say they just "disconnected" from my respect.
On another point, how many years would he have served for those 10 bombings if his name was Hassam Al-Abdulabi? Just sayin'...
I think Brett Fox makes a very solid and obvious point. Most people don't believe solidly one way or the other, but the argument is always couched in black and white terms. Why? Because the few who do believe in one extreme or the other want to divide the middle ground and force us to pick an extreme.
I'd also point out something to the people who think that abortion in the case of an unwanted pregnancy is completely unjustified because "if the woman didn't want to get pregnant, she should have been responsible". Who's to say she wasn't responsible? Do people who say this realize, truly realize that NO form of birth control is 100% effective? Are you personally supporting efforts to promote the use of safe sex, and for greater research and development to be done on more effective, foolproof contraceptives? Or are you just saying she shouldn't have sex at all? Because, you know, it takes two to tango, but only one of those two is going to get pregnant.
I'm not saying guys don't face any responsibilities or financial risk, and I have all the respect in the world for men and women both who step up to their responsibilities. But let's face it, the physical burden of pregnancy and birth falls on the woman. It's not just nine months of prancing around with a big belly and then, plop, the baby's gone to its adoptive parents, risk free. Huge changes happen in the body, and there are risky pregnancies (Thankfully, far fewer women die in childbirth than they used to.)
Even if you do feel that new life starts from conception, you can't escape the fact that it–fetus, baby, potential child, whatever you want to call it–is dependent on HER body. If we are to believe that both are living beings, deserving the same rights, then how do we protect the rights of one individual (unborn or already born) without ignoring the freedoms of the other?
This issue isn't simple, and I wish people wouldn't pretend that it is. An newly conceived fetus/baby/whatever is, at best, a potential life. Plenty of pregnancies end without someone even knowing it, but they wouldn't go to jail for child neglect. The needs of the living need to be considered at least as much as the needs of the "might live one day".
We need to focus on the middle ground. For me, personally, I would argue that, by-and-large, abortions for unwanted pregnancies should be done in the first trimester. And beyond those grounds, only special circumstances (medical & health issues, those rare "I only just found out" pregnancies, etc) should be debated beyond that point. But that's my personal view, and I know that other people, on both sides of the debate, will disagree.
Regardless on my position on abortion I think that it is hypocritical to tolerate murder in order to protect the unborn. The 'Right to Life' should hardly be applied to some and not others.
I am a Christian and I don't remember God ever saying: "Please feel free to murder and destroy things in my name, whenever you feel like." Who does he think "justifies" his actions" Who?
Bray ought to be judged, and if found guilty, he should be treated like any terrorist. He has all the traits and behavior of a bigot, and bigotry is what has led men to become terrorists. We are witnessing just that in many parts of the world.
i had an abortion 2 years ago. i'm not ashamed to say so and i believe that women should have the right to choose whether or not they carry a pregnancy to term. it was the right choice for me, but i also know and understand that is not the right choice for everyone.
at the time when i terminated my pregnancy i was living abroad and the procedure was carried out by my regular OBGYN. there is such false information spread throughout the u.s.-american health care community and the anti-choice faction. it's horrifying. and this type of terrorism condoned by mr. bray and people like him is APPALLING.
the clinics in question support women who not only choose to terminate a pregnancy (their own personal choice) but also who seek low / no-cost medical care for their reproductive health (e.g. birth control, annual gynecological check-ups...pap smears, etc). these services are essential, especially for women who have no health insurance or whose carriers do not cover such services.
i am so ANGRY, CNN....that you have made this hateful person your connector of the day. it was an ignorant decision and a slap in the face to women everywhere (pro-choice or otherwise).
i will no longer be reading cnn.com or watch cnn for ANY news coverage.
The abortion issue is one that I think is most correctly addressed by this axiom: You no playa da game, you no maka da rules. If men became pregnant, the issue would have been resolved long ago.
I do not deprecate human life and I admit that the question is difficult. I think that Roe v. Wade did it the best way that we human beings can do it.
Do you think that your extreme methods will every encourage anyone who doesn't agree with you to switch to your side? Don't you think that if you toned down the rhetoric and action, you might be more effective?
THe murder of Dr. George Tiller only served to exacerbate the feeling of hatred that so many people had towards extreme anti-abortion advocates...clearly violence doesn't work.
My belief on the matter of abortion does not really matter for the purpose of this discussion.
We are a nation of laws that we all have input into governing our lives. Until abortion is deemed illegal, there is no point in commiting violent acts against it. If the people of this country feel that abortion should be outlawed, it is within their power to change it.
Until then, violence against a lawful business or business person is against the law and should be punished to the full extent of the law. If the violence is in the form of a terrorist attack, then I think they should be procecuted an punished as a terrorist.
I am a medical doctor and believe abortion is murder.
The fact that it will happen anyway if it was illegal is no excuse to now turn doctors into murderers and be paid for it. If people start killing the elderly because they are a burden, will extermination centres for them also become legal?
Sure violence breeds violence. But the first violence is that of the murderers of the most innocent, most vulnerable people: The unborn.
Just like dr Shipman believed he helped his patients by helping them out of this world, abortionists likely think they do a good deed onto their little patients.
The stupid illogical legal stipulation of a gestational date at which a "fetus" becomes a "human" holds no scientific nor moral ground. There are only 3 distinct occurrences in the development of life: Fertilization, Implantation and Birth. You have to decide on one of these to determine the start of life.
Also: If you may legally pull the unborn to pieces with abortion instruments after implantation, why should you not be allowed to breed them in incubators and do medical experiments on them.. at least with the latter approach, you serve the good of all people..
Abortion is murder. Abortionists carry out hundreds of thousands of abortions/murders in their lifetimes. Taking the life of an abortionist or bombing an abortion clinic is justifiable because it potentially saves the lives of hundreds of thousands of INNOCENT children.
I am flabergasted at his righteous conviction that killing another is justified under the laws of God. Michael Bray is waging his own war of egomaniacal grandeur if he thinks God will reward him in ANY way for killing doctors performing abortions. It's none of his business to make decisions about a woman's private right to choose.
All terrorists believe that their acts are justifiable and that they can suppost their position with religious scripture. I support a society of law where conflict is confined through litigation.
I sit on the fence when it comes to abortion, its a very personal matter and I think that people should have the choice of whether to have an abortion or not depending on if they are ready to have a baby, or if it is a pregnancy resulting from rape, or if the baby might suffer from ailments or illnesses
Again this is a very personal decision and I dont think anyone has the right to say if it is right or wrong
However, what I don't understand is that Mr. Bray advocates the message of pro-life etc and yet he commits the crime of bombing medical centres that result in the maiming and killing of innocent people!
If there is an example of hypocrisy this must be it
I don't think a male deserves to be an anti-abortion activist. He will never have to make a crucial decision like whether to have an abortion.
I don't think any of these anti-abortion activists realize what a difficult decision it is for these women. These doctors that they kill are people too. That is never a praise-worthy thing. Their beliefs are blinding them to their illogical actions.
There's a big difference between "a justifiable action" and the right thing to do.
Abortion is a basic human right for women up till the 16th week of pregnancy. To call it murder is an ignorant undereducated persons way, of dealing with what is his or hers reluctance to deal with the fact, that he or she has been brainwashed by his or hers religion.
This bomber shouldve served life in prison as an example for what he has done. He is in fact a terrorist, since he goes after unarmed civilians in cowardly fashion. Give him and his kind the same treatment we give the Gitmo prisoners.
It is dumbfounding that one would think the abortionist worst than the women who get abortions. Yet I have never once heard of holding a woman who has an abortion. Why is this...and why the double standard?
I am Christian. However, I do not believe that religion should become a part of this debate (for obvious reasons). With that out of the way, let's begin.
Abortion is killing, although, in cases in which the mother and fetus are going to die, I believe abortions are permissible. Most of the intelligent debate centers around when a fetus becomes "alive". Any argument about "woman's freedom" or "anti-abortionists are all crazy Christians" becomes irrelevant at the point when murder becomes an issue.
Let's look to science as a neutral third party in this debate. First of all, even though a fetus is dependent on its mother for early growth, it is still a separate organism. It has its own set of unique DNA. Secondly, what is the brightline between when a fetus becomes a human with rights? There is none, except birth. The idea that birth separates human beings with rights, ideas, liberty, and freedom from mere biowaste is absurd. Relative location to a woman's uterus does not determine rights. Because there is no brightline, we must assume that from the moment of conception, it is immoral to kill an unborn fetus. Wikipedia's definition of murder is "the unlawful killing of another human being with intent". Since from the moment of conception, a fetus is a human being (with its own unique set of DNA), and because abortion is done with intent from the mother and the doctor, and not from the fetus, abortion falls under the definition of "murder" and must not remain lawful within the United States of America.
Here are two honest and very simple questions that I hope will be included:
If you believe in God as a faithful christian would do, how do you manage to convince yourself that your praise for a murderer and your crimes are worth putting you in hell?
Personally, I would do anything to fight abortion if I were you – as long as it was done through the love of Jesus and with all the respect for God's creation – which does of course include the life of abortion supporters as well as everyone else. Sacrificing eternal life would never be worth it. I would leave the judgement to God on the final day. What gives you the right to to God's work?
They are fighting pro abortion people and they are ready to kill for it. I wonder what kind of a God these people believe in. What kind of parents or people raised these nimcomputs
You should be able to do what you want because it is your baby. Mothers should just think about their decisions and remember that babies have finger nails.
if your an anti-abortionist and you kill people that makes you worse than the people having the abortion. even if the doctor, in your mind, killed thousands of babies, it is more your fault for not producing sex ed for our young children while giving the "absence is best" talk instead. we see how well that worked didnt we?
why dont we just ask sarah palin...
why is this called a quiz? just looks like a blog, to me. will mr bray be responding to any of this?
pro-lifers say that all children have the right to be born. perhaps so... but a far more important right is this – every child who is born, deserves to be born into a loving, welcoming home.. every child who is to be born deserves to be wanted. no child deserves to be beaten, neglected, shaken till it's brain is damaged, abused till it's limbs are broken, not to mention it's self worth, it's spirit, any chance it has of happiness. no child deserves to be scarred with cigarettes, called terrible names, treated as though it is a worthless, unloved thing.
and it happens ALL the time. think about that for a minute. thousands upon thousands of children suffer at the hands of parents and family who do not want them. what does mr bray do about that?
i would have far more respect for the pro-lifers if they put their time and money where their mouths are. go adopt abused children. spend your time and energy and money in interventions with the parents whom your desires would force to have unwanted children, in the hopes that you can stop the abuse before it begins. go volunteer at a childrens' hospital and witness what terrible cruelties are inflicted upon innocent children for whom life was NO gift at all, but a nightmare which they had the right to be spared. if being spared means not having been born in the first place, so be it. i wonder what those children would choose, if they were given the power to choose? the infants who get choked, slapped, punched and worse, because they cried one time too many. who have no way of defending themselves.
mr bray is clearly a nut case, but there are sensible people out there who rattle on endlessly about stopping the 'murder'. what about defensless children living in hell. what have you done for them lately?
ps – adoption is not the panacea everyone thinks that it is.
An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind.
I just wonder if when these unwanted, unloved, drug addicted babies grow up to have all sorts of mental and emotional problems....they will be taken care of financially by those on this discussion board that are so against abortion. Oh, that's right, you don't believe in social welfare either, so who will take care of these kids...I guess we'll let the gangs sort it out.
It is the height of irresponsibility to give this lunatic a platform and to legitimize his fanatical position. He is a bomber and a terrorist who tries to advance his cause by violence, not reasoned debate. Why would CNN set him up as merely a controversial or outspoken advocate of the anti-abortion position. He is the lunatic fringe and should not be listened to or discussed seriously. Shame on the editors of this site for this short-sighted and irresponsible decision.
Anvish raises a good point and I would like to elaborate on it further. I firmly believe that abortion is murder but this doesn't naturally lead us to act with violence to counter it.
We, as Christians, have failed to mitigate the factors which make abortion acceptable to many. I include myself in this indictment for failing to:
* generously adopt children, especially those with disabilities and challenging developmental circumstances
* minister to the needs of women who undergo pregnancy without the support of a husband - we could lovingly support them, but they feel (and are) alone
* minister to the conscience of men who don't assume their responsibility for the life concieved
* provide aid and comfort to those who know they will financially struggle if they carry a child to term
In short, if we ensured that no parent would be abandoned and no child would be born unloved it would make a world of difference. Christian compassion is our heritage and our most formidable weapon. I would be very interested to know if Mr. Bray had contemplated these options prior to undertaking violence.
What Bray is trying to do is wrong because he doesn't even know what he's talking about. Abortions happen naturally all the time (miscarriges) But clinically induced abortions has nothing wrong with it because the decision is up to woman carrying the child and if she feels the need then let it be. Abortions arent the doctors fault or the clinics, if anything they're doing a service. Women can easily get back-alley abortions that could hurt or kill the mother. What I'm trying to say is that women are garrented the right to an abortion and all the pro-life radicals have NO(!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!) right to that option away from women.
Gidday there Michael,
1.)“Why is it fine for your God called Yahweh to terminate pregnancies by the thousands every-day and not o.k for one of his lifelike images?”
2.)“If abortion is so a bad sin in the eyes of Christians, one that justifies even murder – why didn’t Yahweh bother to include one line in his manifesto?
Look forward to getting a straight answer.
"If we are to affirm, as I do, that the children in the womb who are killed at abortion facilities are, in fact, children – if these are children, then action taken to defend them is justifiable – it cannot be condemned," Bray said during a 1999 "60 Minutes" interview.
"I consider blowing up a place where babies are killed a justifiable act."
From a philosophical point of view – we should admit that the argument is FLAWLESS!!!
You may disagree with the guy – but to ANY sane person, the argument is perfectly valid and reasonable.
If abortionists are killing human beings (innocent babies/children) – Bray is very correct in his argument.
Wouldn't you do your best (even if that means blowing up houses) if you knew that someone was using those houses to kill babies???
Of course – if they are not children – the argument does not hold!
P.S. I do not think that BRAY ever bombed houses with people in them (thus intending to kill PEOPLE) – he bombed them when they were empty to do everything possible to stop the killing of the unborn!
Of course – the BIG QUESTION is: when does life begin? This may be debatable, but it is certainly laughable to say that an infant becomes a human being only at conception – the passing through the birth canal makes him a human being with rights!
And the fact is – many people in this great country do ACT (even if they do not believe) as if that is the case.
This debate does not have to bring God and Christianity in.
I think that most people would agree that one should not kill an innocent human being!
If the unborn is a human being – it is hard (really – it is impossible) to argue that bombing empty clinics to stop their killing is wrong!
CORRECTION: only at BIRTH (not conception)!
生き Males have no right to be anti-abortionists becaus they don't understand? How ludicrous.
I do however agree with the last part of your post.
Lets at the very least make it more difficut to have an abortion in the US.
If the father of the unborn child were to punch the mother in the belly with the intent of killing the fetus...and he succeeds...would it be murder?
What if the father does not agree with the mother that the child should be aborted ecause he has strong religious beliefs?
At least make it a decision both the biological father and mother have to agree upon except in life threatening situations.
Yikes, only 4 yrs. for all that and how many "real" people did he kill?
Abortion is emotional... but for CHRISTS sake.. get an education people and respect peoples rights.
If you want to get into it... it is like a piece of snot in your nose for many weeks... so quit all this ... oooh... it's a living being.... it is only 8 cells!!! for awhile...when will this country get educated, quit making emotional pleas to get support for who knows what.
And if you want to go on the other side and disagree, fine... are you willing to adopt, take on every child born, feed it , find it a home, guarantee it will not be abused and will get to go to college, let alone take care of the "woman", who has to bear that child. Ohh.. and yes... not make the taxpayers responsible for any cost of this!
Abortion is MURDER !!! Why should you kill innocent babies ? Your parents have always loved you and do what ever they could to keep you alive, why would you kill your own children.
To me, abortion is something out of a horror story. The baby is even conscious at that point. Parents justify their means by saying that if the baby were to live, it would not have a happy life because of many different reasons.
This should not be the case. Ask yourself this question. If you had never experienced vision and you were born blind. Would you rather have been never born at all? I know I would rather have been. Although I say this, I do not support killing. Killing is as good as abortion.
The man says he's Christian and he says this is justified but what he is doing is against the word of God. If he truly wishes to stop abortion, killing is not the answer. Protests, petitions, there are many ways to ban abortion. Blowing up so many clinics is murder and is really not smart way to do it.
Abortion has been around as long as human beings have been on the earth, whether you agree with it or not. Making abortion illegal does not stop it – it only kills more women, as they are forced to take higher risks under unsanitary conditions with less skilled practitioners to have the abortion done. The question is the value of the woman's life – more women die having illegal abortions done.
What gives any of you the right to force your personal beliefs on others?
I am neither for or against abortion but I get sick and tired of idiots forcing their own views on others. What next? Are you going to argue against the customs of some religions?
Abortion should be legal because the most likely individuals to have abortions are those who are unfit or unable to raise a child. So therefore it doesn't matter whether the fetus is a real child or not, it probably is, abortion should still be allowed. Every abortion is one less person that in eighteen years would be likely to break into my car and steal my stereo, but also one less likely stripper, which is sad.
If we started looking at religious extremist for what they are people with serious mental illness or brain washing and giving them the medical help they need we wouldn’t have this problem after all if I was on the shore line praying to the half man half dolphin God I’d be locked up but we seem to accept these mythical figures as fact
If it's not in YOUR "belly" you have no right to say what someone else can do with THEIR unborn baby. How can these people justify their actions by killing other fellow humans who are actually living and breathing.
I am not a woman, but I do have a baby. I can think of seveal reasons to have an abortion if i were a pregnant woman.
1. incest pregnancy
2. rape pregnancy
3. the baby might have a birth defect making life very difficult for all.
4. maybe i'm not ready yet... and that's none else's business.
i'm very proud to say that i am a born again atheist. i can tell you without a doubt there is NOTHING written in your holy bible that says abortion is a "sin" or an act against your god.
stop letting those preachers push their ideas on you and think for yourself!
So what about if the woman is carrying a dead fetus or the fetus is going to die, or what if the woman's life is in endanger. Try thinking about the Psychological consequences of not having an abortion of carrying a died/dying fetus for 9 months.
Why would the taking off a live or even multipal lives merit the taking of live? Is this not agenst the teachings of Jesus who tells us to turn the other cheek and condems all acts of violance even in self defense or defence off a loved one. The un born are marthers but a marther deverves better praze then violence for violance leads to sin and sin to hell and howe can God be seved bye more off his children falling to hell?
The only difference between Michael Bray and Osama Bin Laden is that MB would never preach suicide missions.. oh guess the other difference is that ObL is still at large while MB is locked up hopefully having to bite the pillow day and night (well done!!!!).
In response to "human"..
Can think of another reason for an abortion.. if your baby was Michael Bray.
TO: rayna burkes January 19th, 2010 2354 GMT
Rayna thank you for sharing this. I so agree that CNN should NEVER have done this.
And Trevor, Trevor January 19th, 2010 1830 GMT
You are so very right on every single word but sadly I doubt anyone will ever see reason
Yes to all those who say it is a very individual personal issue and it is a woman's issue and right. That is what it is, final
Abbortion is murder and the PREVENTION of that murder by ANY MEANS is needed.
This is a Delicate issue, which creates very heated debate.
The only question which should be asked, is why a women shouldn't be allowed to make her own choice when it comes to a life changing experience such as carrying a child to term.
Just a few examples of what I am trying to get across..
If a women is at risk of dying if she gives birth, should her life be scarified for the child.
If a women is raped, and becomes pregnant from that tragic event, should she have no choice but to have the baby.
Religion should not be brought into something like this. It is a simple matter of a womens right to her own body.
I will leave it at that.
If the hypothetical Heaven made up by bronze-age Semitic shepherds are filled with these holier-than-thou fanatics who will stop at nothing to enforce their ideals upon other people, then I'll gladly be in the company of the equally hypothetical Hell anytime. Imagine an eternity spent with these hypocrites frothing at the mouth spewing hatred!
I don´t get americans. You would be screaming bloody murder if one of the al qaida crazies got a front spot on cnn to puke up his propaganda, but it´s quite ok to let this american taliban terrorist do it?
Controversial?! Sounds like a criminal to me. Is this what passes for journalism these days? Calling a bomber of 10 clinics just "controversial" adds a sense of legitimacy to his actions like he some sort of rational part of the debate over abortion. I suppose by that logic Charles Manson is just infamous.
hmm..contradict much? so the killing of children shall be justified by killing the previously mentioned children along with everyone else in the clinic? yeah. what a wacko we have here folks.
Warped is the only word to describe a bizzarrely religious ideal that killing is ever justified– it is not. For a rational, thinking person to kill an adult human or blow up an abortion facility, putting the lives of medical staff, patients, and innocent bystanders or passersby at risk, in the name of avoiding future abortions, is revolting and totally illogical.
I am against abortion, but I am also firmly convinced that two wrongs do not make a right– and as a believer I am convinced beyond any doubt that God would not approve of murder in his name !
I recently read the provocative question, 'Who would Jesus waterboard ?' The answer is clear to anyone who understands his ministry and mission : no one, ever.
Would Christ condone the murders glorified and praised by this "minister" ??? He would not. And to condone murder in His name is a disgrace and a travesty.
I find the whole anti-abortion crews arguments to ring hollow. The United States has one of the highest infant mortality rates in the world and yet the ostensibly "pro-life" crew says and does nothing about it. In fact, Republicans, who most of the pro-life crew seem to support, are more than happy to cut pre-natal and post-natal medical funding for women who cannot afford care. So let me get this straight, it's a baby until its born, after that its worthless unless the parents have money. Brilliant.
Neither side will ever win this argument. However, Bray is a broken person with a broken solution for a broken problem. Nut jobs like Bray wouldn't be so bad if they would strap their bombs to themselves and first test them in an open field.
Here is why abortions will never be made illegal in this country: Politicians, the wealthy, and people of reputation (preachers) screw around. The last thing any of these people want is grounds for a paternity suit.
For everyone who sets the foundation of their argument on "GOD DOES NOT EXIST" you are setting yourself up on unstable ground. It is totally impossible to prove that is true, no one thinks you can 100 % prove that, so everyone basing their arguments on those four words doesn't have a philosophical leg to stand on. You can not affirm a negative without infinite knowledge and i doubt any of you have it.
On abortion, I see that as soon as the first cell is made it's got different DNA than the mother, its not the mother. If you want to classify it as a virus go ahead, but does that stop after the second trimester? Does it stop while the babe cannot live without the mother?
I suggest that every abortion supporter look at how far they are willing to go and question why they can go so far. I also suggest they look at professor Peter Singer's views on abortion and ask if they are supporters of his views and if not why, it seems to me if abortion is okay we should all logically go to Singer's ideas.
I wanted to say to Rayne I agree with you 100% that it is absolutely ludicrous of CNN to give this lunatic the aura of respectability that they have... and with another reader who said " It is the height of irresponsibility to give this lunatic a platform and to legitimize his fanatical position. "
Rayna I'm sorry you were insulted by some of the readers of this forum– that is awful and I am shocked that no one on the site's staff has removed that post. I had expected this to be a 'moderated' forum but apparently it is not...
Abortion is not for me, but no one has the right to judge you; we have not walked in your shoes ! Christ said 'he who is without sin, cast the first stone'. Even a person who believes you made an unwise decision having an abortion should look closely at his own conscience and not throw stones - and personal insults to other posters have no place in a discussion of the merits of this man's theories and actions!
I too think I will NOT be reading this forum ever again. CNN's choice seems to be to create controversy, rather than inform people and promote intelligent, thoughtful discussion.
With respect to your comment:
"I too think I will NOT be reading this forum ever again. CNN’s choice seems to be to create controversy, rather than inform people and promote intelligent, thoughtful discussion."
By you not posting you have essentially given free reign to those who promote this crap. Keep on posting....please.
Have you really not seen any intelligent, thoughtful discussion on this topic here? I think we need more talks like this but I do not believe making Bray the object of this discussion was right.
CNN....let's get creative!!!
Why not discuss canabalism using Eddie Geen as the posterchild?
Thanks Gianni, Mike Brays statements are perfectly reasonable if babies are really killed by abortion! And of course, they are!
Der_Dicht– how the hell can you call a baby a "medical issue" this is HUMAN LIFE we are taking about people. Abortion is murder. There is no way around it. When a woman becomes pregnant, there is no question that she is going to have a child, it is in her womb. its not a blob of tissue, its life. The question is whether she is going to allow her unborn baby to live, or have some doctor slaughter it.
I am sad, so sad that you all hate this man. He has balls for sticking up for what he believes in. He is not an advocate for violence–he supports justice. If you saw some phsyco beating up a little kid, you would take him out, would you not? you would defend the poor, innocent kid, right? This is the exact same scenario. George Tiller murdered 60 thousand babies, by his OWN hands. He even recognized these babies as human life, he offered funerals or baptisms after the "procedure." Hitler didn't even kill that many with him own hands. Roder killed Tiller and it was totally justifieable. It stopped him from ever killing again. Praise the Lord
I agree with Mr. Bray's beliefs. Abortionists are nothing more than legalized serial killers that should be executed for the murder of the most innocent.
Also Aida–when the abortion clinics were bombed, no one was in them. they were bombed so that they could no longer be used, therefore no abortions could be "provided"
Justice does not allow the brutal butchering of babies, even though the law does. The law is relative and in this case wrong and unjust. Blowing up a place where babies are killed is a justifiable act. Scott Roeder also did the right and just thing to stop child serial killer George Tiller.
The issue begins with the violence of abortion. The issue needs to stop right there. Looking at the response without looking at its cause is false argumentation, by attempting to distract from and pretending to ignore the cause. Proponents of abortion violence are hypocrites when they criticize their own echo, particularly when abortionists have killed over 50 million victims yet have gotten a taste of their own medicine less than 0.01% of the time. Questions? Just look at http://www.100abortionpictures.com or http://www.abortionno.org, or other website googled by "abortion pictures" that show what abortion really is. Abortion is the problem.
Pastor Bray's book "A time to Kill" digs deep into ethics, acceptable violence and the difference between murder and justifiable defense of others. As Dr. Christopher Hufeland commented, "When a doctor decides who lives and who dies he becomes the most dangerous man in society. He was a German doctor of the late 1800's.
If you went into your 2 year old's room and found a man strangling your child would you shoot the man to save your child? When is a child a child? The unborn baby doesn't grow from a monkey or a cat. He is human from the point of conception. A defenseless child needs to be protected in the very place he is growing. He is his own separate person and just as helpless and a child who is one day old.
I read through many of the comments and I couldn't find a single intelligent one. Not a single one. Homo "sapiens" is a flagrant misnomer. Nobody really thinks.
Think of it as a good Western, the babies are the good guys the baby-killers are the bad guys. Any questions?
If you knew that Jews were being hauled in trains to death camps and you could prevent it by blowing up the tracks, would you be a fanatic or a hero? If a person invaded your home and was in the process of killing one of your children what would you do? If you had the ability to stop him by using deadly force would you not do it? I suspect that you would protect your own children's lives with whatever means necessary. But when it comes to unborn babies, for some reason, it is not acceptable to apply the same protections to them? I find this double standard amazing and ignorant. And by the way, when is the last time you asked a woman when her "fetus" is due to be born? You dont. You say BABY. Fetus is a term used only when you need to dehumanize the child. Hitler used the same dehumanizing type of words so he could commit mass Genocide. I see no difference in what is happening in the United States today. Life begins at conception. That is reality. If you would not allow your born child to undergo the same procedures that are taking place in abortion mills, then you should not support it happening to thousands of unborn children every day.
And if the greedy abortionists wouldn't want to be vivisected and dismembered, they shouldn't be vivisecting and dismembering helpless innocent babies. Remember: Tiller was pro-choice. Tiller was chosen. I don't hear Tiller complaining about receiving his own medicine.
Well, revisiting this site a year later, I see that I am as popular as an antebellum abolitionist in Alabama. One Gianni above references my interview with Dan Rather which accurately sums up the matter. It is a simple truth that must be repeated to the hard-of-hearing: "If we are to affirm, as I do, that the children in the womb who are killed at abortion facilities are, in fact, children – if these are children, then action taken to defend them is justifiable – it cannot be condemned," Bray in a 1999 "60 Minutes" interview.